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asking for a *gasp* major gift with Rhea Wong



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Major gift fundraising can be very intimidating for so many small organizations. Oftentimes we think we don't know anyone who can give, or we think of a major gift as a hundred thousand dollars where very often it can be 500 or a thousand dollars for your organization. But I think the most intimidating part of major gift fundraising is the idea of a face-to-face ask that gets people running and hiding. I think that is truly the number one thing that many people think of as the worst part of fundraising.


In today’s podcast, Rhea Wong, experienced nonprofit consultant and coach, will talk about how you can make bigger asks for bigger gifts to fully fund your small nonprofit’s vision and mission.


Myths that Rhea wants us to walk away from:

  • You can ask anyone to give. Building a relationship with donors is a process. To determine whether they align with your organization’s mission, you must first identify and understand the type of person you are approaching, their capacity to give and know their values and interests.

  • Only rich people have the capacity to give. Rhea suggests that the best way to know whether someone is inclined to give to you is to simply ask. Just because someone has a hundred million dollars doesn't mean they're going to give you a hundred million dollars. These donors could give you a thousand or five hundred dollars if your mission does not resonate with them.

Rhea’s thoughts around major gift fundraising

  • Fundraising is just a math problem. It's asks minus no’s equal yeses. The more asks you put out, the more nos you're going to get, but the more yeses you're going to get. Fundraisers are so nervous about the no's, they will do anything to try to avoid it, which includes doing massive amounts of research that nobody looks at. It includes never actually setting a time, complaining like your board isn't setting up meetings for you, tweaking the annual report and your donor page versus getting out there and ask. You just need to ask and the more nos you get the more you learn. You're going to screw up, but that's how you get better.

  • Learn to listen. In conversations with donors, remember the 75:25 ratio, where 75% donors talking and 25% you listening. People who are nervous about money, about people who have money, about the conversation, they overtalk, they create a deck as a crutch but there's no substitute for being present and being vulnerable and asking really good questions to people.

  • Give value. Every time you talk to someone and you're asking them for something, you're probably not going to get callbacks. But you can cultivate a relationship where you are also offering value and that could be in the form of companionship, giving information, opportunity to get more engaged or involved in a meaningful volunteer experience. Every meeting should be about engaging further, but that engaging further, it doesn't have to be about them giving it can also be about you giving.



Favourite Quotes from Today’s Episode

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“ I build a whole business around major gift fundraising training, and I'm like, here's the big secret you guys, I'm training you to have a conversation. That's the secret. Like, it's not like some deck, it's not magical words. It's not like anything other than like, can I as a human being have, sit with you and understand who you are as a human being. And see if the thing that you care about is the thing that we're doing. And if so, can we build something together? Like, that's it, that's the big secret, right? ”


“At the end of the day, fundraising is just a math problem. It's just a math problem. It's asks minus nos equals yeses. The more asks you put out, the more nos you're going to get, but the more yeses you're going to get. I feel like fundraisers are so nervous about the no's they will do anything to try to avoid it, which includes doing massive amounts of research that nobody looks at. It includes never actually setting a time to me. It includes, uh, dating forever and just going on a bajillion site visits, like no one wants to go on that many site visits. It looks like complaining like your board isn't setting up meetings for you. It looks like, tweaking the annual report and your donor page versus getting out there and ask like, you just need to ask and the more nos you get the more you learn, right. You're going to screw up. I've screwed up asks, right? I'm sure you have, but that's how you get better. ”


Resources from this Episode

Rhea Wong Consulting

Nonprofit Lowdown

The Ask by Laura Fredricks

The Good Partnership


Transcript

Cindy W.: Hello listeners. So some of you may know that in my past life, I actually used to run a major gifts program for a very large institution as well I've done capital campaigns and actually spent quite a bit of my career working on major gifts or with major gift donors. And, I really enjoy it. I love getting to see what I think is often the most generous side of people, but major gift fundraising can be very intimidating for so many small organizations.


And oftentimes we think we don't know anyone who can give, or we think of a major gift as like a hundred thousand dollars where very often it can be 500 or a thousand dollars for your organization. But I think the most intimidating part of major gift fundraising is the idea of a face-to-face ask that gets people running and hiding. I think that is truly the number one thing that many people most, if not all people think of as like the worst part of fundraising. And so today that is what we are going to be talking about on the podcast.


I'm your host, Cindy Wagman, and you're listening to The Small Non-profit podcast where we bring you practical down-to-earth advice on how to get things done for your small organization because you are going to change the world and we're here to help.


So today's guest is Rhea Wong and Rhea is amazing. I know you going to love her. She is a consultant. Her company is called Rhea Wong Consulting, and she has over 15 years of experience in the non-profit sector, 12 as an executive director, she has both grown and scaled organizations, but also built major gift fundraising programs and manage major gift fundraising. And now that's what she teaches. And I loved having this conversation because, she and I are so on the same page and it's very practical, very specific advice to help you, whether your major gift donor is a $500 donor or $5,000 donor or $500,000 donor. The advice is the same and it's, we're here to walk you through it. So with that, here's the podcast. Rhea, welcome to the podcast


Rhea W.: Cindy, thank you so much. It's so fun to be here.


Cindy W.: I'm so excited. And I literally, as we're recording this last week, we had me interview for your podcast and I'm really excited to have you on ours. And we're going to talk about one of those big, scary things from people in fundraising, which is meeting with donors face to face for an ask. And so let's talk a little bit about, let's set the stage, if you will, and talk about leading, like how do you know when it's time to ask, how do you know that this is the right strategy for you with any given donor?


Rhea W.: Oh my gosh, Cindy where do I even begin? Number one, I really believe that people of considerable wealth have more money than they have time. So if they're already willing to meet with you, that's a pretty good sign. Now, as you may know, I love a dating analogy, right? Thinking about the ask is akin to asking someone to marry you. It's not appropriate to do it after one date. And I think so many people that are just like the practice, what I call hit and run fundraising. Oh, I'm just going to meet this person and then I'm going to ask them for money. It's like you haven't developed a relationship, right? Like why would you ask someone to marry you straight away after the first date? That's weird. No, one's going to say. Yeah.


So I think there's this fine line between developing a relationship, but also waiting too long cause, on the other hand, you don't want to be that person that is dating someone for 10 years. And the person's so what are we doing this thing, right? Or as I like to call getting friends zone, like I've made that mistake of waiting too long to ask and now we're like friends. So now it's awkward to ask. A couple of different things is number one when you are exploring the conversation. And this is really I take a lot of this from Laura Fredricks The Ask, so people who have not read it is fantastic. So let's think about the donor cycle. First is identification and qualification is this the kind of person that you should be approaching? And when you think about qualification I and identification, I like you to think about it along with the four different metrics.


Capacity do they actually have funds that they can give affinity is there any evidence that they've given to your cause? So if you're talking to someone, like they have a lot of money. But they only give to environmental stuff, and I'm an education organization. I don't know.


That seems like you're probably barking up the wrong tree there, relationship, if I hear someone say let's call Oprah and you don't know Oprah, like for real, you don't know Oprah, then stop talking to me right now.


Cindy W.: I can't, I was made to write a letter to Oprah in my first fundraising job. It was like, we have, we have to, as soon as over here is about this, going to send us all this money. I'm like,


Rhea W.: Yeah, Oprah is not going to send you money unless you actually, for real legitimate know Oprah, Oprah, ain't sending you money. And then the fourth metric that I think a lot of people forget is recency, right? So if you let's go back to dating now, Are you more likely to go on a date with someone that you've heard from recently versus someone that you heard from a year ago? Chances are the one that you heard from recently, right? So along with those four metrics, you can look at your pool of donors and say, okay let's look at our list of like 20 prospects. I don't know if you don't like to work on more than 20, because I feel like it gets overwhelming of the 20 you reach out and you engage.


And so some number of that 20 will be interested in learning more. Again, I'm going to quote Laura Fredricks you do these two sentences. One, question, right? Generally, people write emails that are way too fricking long. Nobody's going to read a multi-paragraph. It ain't happening, especially busy people. So she was sentenced to one question. The first sentence is, and you as an ED can do this, you can have your board members do it. Your first sentence is generally me-sentence. Hey Cindy I am on the board of this nonprofit because of XYZ. Then as a use sentence, right? Like you have to give me some kind of reason why you're reaching out to me. I thought of you because I know that you also care about X, Y, or Z, or you, and I've had conversations about X, Y. Here's the magic condition. I have no idea if this is an interest to you, comma, but would you be willing to XYZ, have a coffee meeting learn more about the organization, introduce you to the ed, go on a site, visit, whatever it may be.


So here's why that I have no idea is magical because it allows people to save face. If they're asking their friends because their friends can display actually, this isn't interesting. Cool, no harm, no foul, but if it is of interest to them, you've already set up the thing because there's nothing worse than thinking that you're going out for a friendly coffee. Oh, actually I want to talk to you about this thing or like really?


Cindy W.: Yes. Yes. I'm a huge believer in telling people what to expect when you ask them any time.


Rhea W.: No, nobody wants to be. Surprised in that way. Okay. So let's say you have the conversation. They seem like they're interested. I always say that it's two or three touchpoints before you get to an ask. And so at the end of every meeting, there should be an ask and it's not necessarily an ask of money, but you, and I think you may have said this to me. It's you bringing them closer, right? It's like a date. If you have a good day, the goal should be to set up another date in order to do something like the first thing is we'll do coffee. If coffee goes well, okay, now we'll do dinner. If dinner goes on, okay. Maybe we'll do a full-day thing. Eventually, you're like, maybe we'll go on vacation together, but every meeting should be about bringing someone a little bit closer to the point that you get to the proposal or the solicitation.


And again, two to three times, I think generally people wait too long to ask, and then here's the thing. If the people know why you're there, they're asked for money all the time. They know why you're there, you know why you're there, let's just stop wasting that. Like you have to spend enough time in order to develop a relationship. And in order to understand if you see the world the same way, but they don't want to keep talking at some point, they just want to be like, all right what do you like? Let's take it to the next level. What is happening? Sorry, I'm going on and on


Cindy W.: That's amazing. And there's a lot. I want to unpack a couple of things. The first thing you talked about, those four qualifying considerations, capacity, affinity, connection recency. One of the things I've experienced is that we're terrible judges of people's capacity we have no idea other than what we seem to give to our organization or others, like the kind of research that we can do online. Usually, people are off, especially in smaller organizations. I hear oh no, they don't have that kind of capacity, or we overestimate because they have a lot of money, we think they have a lot of capacity to give, which are always the same things.


In your experience, especially with smaller organizations doing major gift fundraising, how can they look at their data or prospects and identify that or start to say, okay, who are the people who might have the capacity and how do we start to find those people?


Rhea W.: I'm so glad you asked. So a couple of things here. If you're a small organization. I think the first thing you need to do is define what a major gift is for you, right? And it can't be like I'm here in New York City. What a major gift is for the metropolitan opera is not the same as what a major gift is for your local, grassroots nonprofits. Did I hit a number, right? It's more of an art than a science. I would say, pick a number. So the way I would look at it is to look at all of your donors and then look at the top end. So like maybe you have five people who are given a thousand a month. Okay. Let's just peg it to a thousand. Let's just say a thousand is going to be a major gift for us, right? Fine. Again, I think people, want to overthink it and they do what I call "procrastilearning". They spend a lot of freaking time doing all of the background research, but you know what? Research doesn't mean a thing if unless you ask for the gift. So I think. You'll have to do enough research to know that you're fishing in the right pool. And the other thing I will say, especially here in New York, there are a lot of ways to hide your money. If you're super mega-wealthy, you buy real estate through shell companies. You, if you own a, plane or a yacht, like your name is usually not associated with it.


There are donor-advised funds, so people don't really know what you have or you don't have, so yes, it is tricky. And if you're super mega-wealthy, like there are cottage industries designed to create a moat around you and to create that secrecy, however, there are things that you can do. So your point looking at comps, right? Have they been given to other organizations, are there other annual reports? Generally where they're living. Is it a pretty good indication?


So here in New York, if I'm like, okay, you live on the upper east or upper west side of Brooklyn Heights, that's a pretty good indication that you have some capacity, obviously like any other charitable things that, here in the US you have to disclose public political, contributions. So that's a pretty good indicator usually. But the truth of the matter is I feel like people spend way too long on the research piece and look the best way that you know, whether someone is inclined to give to you is you just have to ask and you can even ask the question what gifts might you be inclined to give? Because someone could have a hundred million dollars, but it doesn't mean they're going to give you a hundred million dollars. They could be like I was really thinking of $10,000. Or a $1,000 or a $500 gift because this is not really my thing. So I think we wait too long to get into people's money and count their money for them.


And then the other piece is, again, in terms of building a relationship, how creepy is it to get, I did this like that time research and I know everything about you and I know that you had a liquidity event okay, that's awkward. Exactly, and like for a small organization, if you're defining major gifts of as a thousand dollars, you don't need to know all of that stuff.


Cindy W.: There are people I guarantee you around you in your database who can give at that capacity. We're just very often I find organizations look externally, right? Who are the people out there? Because the people that we know don't have that capacity and usually they're wrong. So to some degree.


Rhea W. : I feel like people spend a lot of time thinking about out there as opposed to in here. And it's, to me it's indicative of that human tendency oh, the grass is greener out there, as opposed to you're, you might be sitting on a gold mine and it could either be that they genuinely don't have the capacity, which like, maybe that's true. Or you haven't done a good job of making a case, which is probably more likely, so I'm always like, it's lower hanging fruit to cultivate the people you got versus the Rand nos who never even heard about, okay. So we a hundred percent agree. All right. Oh, here's the other mistake that I feel like people make all the freaking time. They talk too much. So I think we talked about this. I am on this one-woman mission to get rid of the pitch. I freaking hate it. I think it's the worst thing that ever happened to fundraise.


Cindy W.: I'm with you. I'm with you.


Rhea W.: I don't know if are people like watching too much shark tank, I don't know what the problem is. But they're like, I'm going to have a pitch deck. I'm like walk in and duh, like I'm like, listen, I have raised millions of dollars and I will tell you, there is no magical combination of words that I've ever said, that gets someone to like, you know what, I'm going to write you a check. Maybe that's happened for someone. It hasn't happened to me. Has it happened for you, Cindy?


Cindy W.: No. The opposite. I find I get so much further if I don't have that. If I don't have that crutch, which I think it is, I think it's a crutch for people talk about the mindset behind it, but it's very much I feel nervous. And so this is something that gives me structure, but no, absolutely most of the biggest gifts I've ever raised did not have. Anything in writing and even a lot of corporate sponsorships, we put together like a word document. Like it's not, but only after the conversation.


Rhea W.: So as Sydney, I build a whole business around major gift fundraising training, and I'm like, here's the big secret you guys I'm training you to have a conversation. That's the secret. It's not like some deck, it's not magical words. It's not like anything other than can I as a human being have, sit with you and understand who you are as a human being. And see if the thing that you care about is the thing that we're doing. And if so, can we build something together? That's it, that's the big secret, right?


Cindy W.: Bingo, bingo, that's it.


Rhea W.: And anyway, people get well let's talk about why people can't have conversations. And I just, for your listeners, 75, 25, remember this ratio 75, them talking 25%, you talking even less, that wouldn't even be better, but you overtalk. And, when you're over-talking it sounds is like remember in Peanuts, the teacher's wow, that's what it sounds like 100%. Okay. So you're right. I think people who are nervous about money, who are nervous about people who have money, who are nervous about the conversation, they over-talk, they create a deck as a crutch but there's no substitute for being present and being vulnerable and asking really good questions to people.


Okay. So let's talk a little bit about those meetings and how we can have those conversations. I like to call them conversation sparks or things. I don't want to go. I want to spend a little bit of time about the actual meeting where you're potentially doing an ass.


But before we get to that, we talked a little bit about these sorts of the yes. At the end of each of those touchpoints and how we move the conversation forward. Because as as you said, we don't want to wait forever. So what are some tools that we can use in conversations to verify that we're on the right path?

Yeah. I'm really like going in with I have a list of what I call power questions, but, I think that's a hard question to answer because every donor is so different and you have to be responsive to the kind of donor. Like I've had donors who have given six-figure jobs that are like, I only communicate via email.

Great, fine. I've had people who like really wanted to like have lunch with me all the time. Okay. Fine. All of these things can happen. The other thing that I just really want to stress is at the end of the day, we can talk about the data, this, and that. But it's a likeability factor. If people don't like you, they're not going to know you and they're not going to trust you.


And so a big part of how we should be thinking about it is actually not from an extractive standpoint. I think we always just think about oh, and then I'm like strategize myself into this meeting and I'm going to get X, Y, and Z. What about if you actually were there to offer value instead? What if you were, if every time you talk to someone you're asking them for something, you're probably not going to get callbacks. But if you cultivate a relationship where you are also offering value and that could be value in the form of sometimes it's just companionship. Sometimes it's information. Sometimes it's an opportunity to get more engaged. Sometimes it's about, offering their kids an opportunity to get involved. Sometimes it's like a meaningful volunteer experience, but you also have to realize that you are also needing to offer value to your donors, not just take so, I forgot where we went from here. But anyway, the point is, every meeting should be about engaging further, but that engaging further, it doesn't have to be about them giving it can also be about you giving.


Cindy W.: Absolutely. And it's, going back to we give in relationships all the time, right? That is the nature of a relationship. And so if we can stick to it, we all have those skills, it's not complicated. It's just that we layer on all these beliefs around money, as you said before, and it becomes complicated. I do want to spend the sort of final part of our conversation, talking about actually asking for the gift, because that comes up and we're going to reinvest the myths and all that. But I find that again, people fixate on that and they don't, I, we agree that the wrong area to fix it up. When you get there. I still get butterflies when I have these conversations. So let's talk about what people can expect and how they can navigate that in a meaningful way.


Rhea W.: So I'm so glad that you asked. So here is what people need to do before they get to the asking number one and that you need to write this down. And again, I'm tipping my hat to Laura Fredricks cause she is freaking genius.. You write down what it is you're asking for on a piece of paper because sometimes people ask and it's so bungled, the person doesn't actually realize you ask for something or you asked, and then you step on, you're like, oh, I know that took a lot of money. So I'm just going to, you should think about it, but maybe we don't even need anyway bye, very confusing. So I want you, everyone listening to write down. Will it, would you be willing to consider a gift of. For Y by this date, $10,000 by July 31st to support a hundred kids going to college, whatever it is, make it clean and then practice it and practice not talking after the ask is out of your mouth because otherwise, you'll screw it up.


But I also want your face to look like this. I know we're not podcasting. So there's a really interesting study and I'm going to get the ratios wrong, but essentially people understand communications is 7%, is the words that you say a much larger percentage is the tone of your voice, and then 35% of the communication is your body language.


So if you're weird and crunchy and squished up. You're going to make it weird. One of my favorite sayings is it's not weird unless you make it weird. Don't make it weird. So you can be nervous, but how that nervous this like inside. Okay. So this is before the ask. So you write down what it is you're asking for then, and this is the magical changes part.


You brainstorm 15 possible things that they may say in response. And then you write down what you might say in response. So that preparation makes you feel less nervous because they're like, I have anticipated all the things now. Could they say the 16 things that you're like, huh? didn't think about that one. Sure. But at least you will have gone through the practice of figuring out what they might say. And usually, the mind is like, Why me, why now? What are you doing with my money, right?


Cindy W.: Yes. Can we, cause I think that is so important. For most people listening to this, the first thing that comes into their mind about what a donor might say is no. And. That is very rarely the answer.


Rhea W.: If people are spending that much time with you, the answer is rarely going to be a flat no if it is a flat no that's actually a gift because I can stop wasting time, but I've never gotten a flat no.


Cindy W.: Yeah, exactly. And I think that's such a myth that's perpetuated in our sector that like it's a yes, no question. It's not, if you've done the work that Rhea has talked about to build up this relationship, you're not going in hitching or asking on the first date, then by the time you get to this ask it's not yes or no. So I'd love to keep giving us some of the examples of questions or responses they might have.


Rhea W. : Yeah. This is the biggest, this is the biggest killer. Oh, I have to think about it. I gotta think about it now. Your inexperienced fundraiser will back with "Okay. Yeah. Sure. Totally understand". If you think about it, the experienced fundraiser, and I want all of your listeners to hear this step in, what's the "it", you don't know what the, is it the project? Is it the amount? Is it the timing thing? You don't know what that is, so then you say, to the extent that you're comfortable, can you tell me what the, no, I'm here. I'm trying to help you the best fundraisers are the Yoda's I'm trying to help you fulfill your vision of the world. How can I help you? What can we do?


So then you get more information. The other response, a lot of people get this okay I'm going to have to talk to my, partner slash financial advisor slash dog or whatever it may be, the inexperienced fundraiser, I'm like, oh yeah, totally understand. The experienced fundraiser leans in. What more information do you think your partner might need? Blah, blah, blah. Then you set the time. That's great. Should we have a call about this to follow up on Friday at 8:00 AM? Because if you don't put it in the calendar months will happen that this is when you get ghosted, people. This is when you're expecting the date and nothing happens and you're waiting by phone. To finalize it in the meeting, as far as the next steps. Now it could, be, it could well be that they are saying, let me think about it, which actually means no, but that's when you want to dig in because if it's a no, then it's a no.


And then it's but really it's. And to your point, For someone who spent this much time with you it's never going to be a, no, we're just negotiating on amount now.


Cindy W.: Yeah, exactly. Okay. This is so valuable and I think we've really debunked a lot of the myths that non-fundraisers especially have about major gift fundraising. And we've been at this conversation for a while, which is so great. Let's talk a little bit about, the next steps and follow up, as you said because putting a very specific next step is important. Oh I also, what ha what if they say yes. So let's start with, what do we do if they say yes, like we'll probably do a little happy dance in our head, but I think, and


Rhea W.: Then get the money. That's so fantastic, Cindy I am so excited. How would you like to process it? What would be the best way? Should I invoice you? Do you prefer credit cards? You want to make a stock transfer. I'm here to facilitate this for you. Make sure you get the details. Don't just hear yesterday. Cool thanks bye but all we always be prepared for yes. Because I feel like we under prepare for the thing.


And then the other thing I just wanted to add is at the end of the day, fundraising is just a math problem. It's just a math problem. It's asks minus no's equals yeses. The more asks you put out, the more no's you're going to get, but the more yeses you're going to get. Feel like fundraisers are so nervous about the no's they will do anything to try to avoid it, which includes doing massive amounts of research that nobody looks at. It includes never actually set a time to me. It includes dating forever and just going on a bajillion site visits, like no one wants to go on that many site visits. It looks like complaining like your board isn't setting up meetings for you. It looks like, tweaking the annual report and your donor page versus getting out there and ask you just need to ask and the more no's you get the more you learn, you're going to screw up. I've screwed up asks, right? I'm sure you have, but that's how you get better.


Cindy W.: Exactly. And usually, it's, again, it's not a one-and-done situation. It's like you have one shot to make that ask. If you, if things go and get derailed in some ways, you can course, correct. It's not over. And if it is over again, you move on to one of the things you mentioned that I used to run a major gifts program. And a lot of what I would find is people just have their prospect lists. So like for people who don't have major gift programs in their organization, which is probably a hundred percent of our listeners, the, like when you have a major gifts dedicated team, they have a prospect list.


And the idea is you work your way through the list. And what I found is people would spend so much time keeping their list and very protective of it and being like, okay I can reach out to this person, reach out to this person again, even though they haven't responded and they haven't indicated any interest in.


We want to turn that list over if people are not like it, don't give up after one try, but as to your point like we focus on all these other things. And one of the things I found was that just okay, that's my prospect. I have to figure out a way to get them to respond if they're not responding as someone else out there, move on.


Yes. Yeah. Abundance mindset, like when I was single dating, my mom would always say there, there are other fish in the sea, stop trying to date the person who doesn't want to date you. We were over that. I was like, in my twenties, I'm like, oh, you're not into me. I'm suddenly I'm totally into you because you are not into me. We need to graduate from that. We want to be with people who want to be with us. Also, hope is not a strategy. I feel like your point, you keep hoping that this person is going to call you back one day. Or you could move on and actually talk to the people who want to talk to you. Yeah. Yeah. And I used to find five or six outreach, I think even maybe up to eight times like I would try someone and after that, they're not responsive move on, but it's like this weird combination of persistence, like not giving up, but then knowing when to give up and that comes from experience., so keep at it.


Rhea W.: So, yeah. I have the rule of seven, which may be a little bit more than most if I reach out to seven times in different ways. Cause you know, sometimes yeah, email does end up in spam and sometimes, people don't check, I don't check my voicemail, okay. Let's, the benefit of the doubt. Let's try to reach out a couple of different times if after seven tries someone is not reaching out to you and you've tried different methods. It's cause they don't want to talk to you. And I'm not saying that they're never going to want to talk to you. Maybe you move them down to a B list, but you got to keep it going, keep it moving. It's like again I was not part of the internet dating situation, it's like Tinder. It keeps flipping man.


Cindy W.: Swipe, like I don't even know what to really swipe.


Rhea W.: I know, but you know what I'm saying?


Cindy W.: Yeah. Are we, ha this is such a great conversation and I know our listeners are going to eat this up where if this is peak their interest and they want to learn more about you dive into that world of major gifts and do it with a really strong guide how can they connect with you?


Rhea W.: Yeah, thanks for asking, check out my website, rhea wong.com. So like you, I have a podcast. So for lots of free content, I have a weekly free webinar. With experts in the field. I have a newsletter where I offer tips, tricks, and resources. And actually, my most recent podcast episode is about how to start a major gift program. So folks are listening, check out nonprofit lowdown and my website again, I don't know if I say it's R H E A W O N G .com.


Cindy W.: Amazing. Thank you so much. It's always a pleasure,